1 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:12,880 - Could I have a beer? - Of course. 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:14,560 - Thank you. - I'll get you one. 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,520 Why did you agree to meet me? 4 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,920 It's an interesting story, and, um... 5 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:40,720 I've got a different perspective. 6 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,240 Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil! 7 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,960 I spent 10 years undercover in the far right. 8 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,840 It was so much worse than I thought it was going to be. Really. 9 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:55,800 It was hardcore. 10 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,800 The first years, especially, it was like full-on Nazi, 11 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,120 and people were, like, 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,640 competing to be as radical as possible. 13 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,960 And there was talk about starting a race war. 14 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:12,600 Yeah, the race war. 15 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,000 We would come to a time where we needed to, like, kill people. 16 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,840 And we'd have hit lists. 17 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,480 And then, like, you'd have, like, the bomb makers themselves. 18 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,040 In the 1990s, there was trouble in the streets. 19 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,240 A lot of tension. 20 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,280 All someone had to do was light a match. 21 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,360 But we didn't think anyone was really gonna do it. 22 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,320 But then one person did. 23 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,520 This interview is being tape-recorded. 24 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,040 I am Detective Sergeant Terrence Boland, 25 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,120 attached to the Anti-Terrorist branch at New Scotland Yard. 26 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:08,760 The other officer present is... 27 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,720 Detective Constable Philip Johnstone 28 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,400 from the Anti-Terrorist branch of New Scotland Yard. 29 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,720 Today is the 1st of May, 1999, 30 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,400 and the time is now 18:13 according to my watch. 31 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,520 You know, the whole idea of us sitting here 32 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:31,840 is to get to the truth. 33 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:35,160 I'd just be the spark, that's all. 34 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,640 The spark that would set fire to this country. 35 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,080 The thoughts, they were getting stronger and stronger. 36 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,440 I just couldn't get it out of my head. 37 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,280 My destiny, you know? 38 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,000 Eventually, I woke up one morning, and I weren't thinking about it anymore. 39 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:55,760 I was gonna do it. 40 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,120 When were you intending to blow it up? 41 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Saturday. 42 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:04,480 Half past five. 43 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,800 ♪ Red alert, red alert It's a catastrophe ♪ 44 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:26,440 ♪ But don't worry ♪ 45 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,520 ♪ Don't panic ♪ 46 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:30,800 ♪ Ain't nothing going on but history... ♪ 47 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:32,840 That beautiful morning 48 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,680 everybody was everywhere, 49 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,360 the sunshine, Brixton was bubbly, 50 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,640 and people were doing their own things. 51 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,600 Peaches, plum, nectarines! There are strawberries! Come on! 52 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:46,920 We got Harrod's fruit at Woolworth's prices! 53 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,480 Brixton is amazing place to be. 54 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,880 It's a historical place to be, you know? 55 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,080 This is where all the Black people 56 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,320 came to first in London. 57 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:58,440 ♪ Don't panic ♪ 58 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,360 People work together, people live together. 59 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,640 We knew people from all over the world. 60 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,800 People selling everything and everywhere, 61 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,240 getting their penny from where they can. 62 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,400 Yeah, that's £2, darling. 63 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,200 We got all the C... every CD in the charts. 64 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:16,280 Snoop Dogg... 65 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,000 Michael Jackson, Madonna. 66 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,280 I actually had an adult film made by Snoop Dogg. 67 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:22,200 Yeah. 68 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:24,840 - Pirate it... But I never watched it. - We never sold that. 69 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,000 - We did. - Didn't think so. All right then. 70 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,040 Sorta Robin Hoods. In their eyes, we were Robin Hoods, 71 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,360 but not in Our Price's eyes anyway. Our Price used to be over the road, 72 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,840 and we used to say things like, "This is my price, not Our Price." 73 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,000 We had a lot of rhymes. 74 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,680 "Didn't fall off a lorry, had to jump and get it myself." 75 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,560 "I don't care if you're in the game or out the fucking game, 76 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,120 half the shopping store prices." 77 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,320 Really liked that. High-five. 78 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,560 Don't leave it hanging. 79 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:54,080 Coconut! 80 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,920 Coconut, coconut, very fresh here. 81 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,320 We were all there, a happy, lovely day. 82 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,120 All of a sudden, my neighbor said to me, 83 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,840 "Wow, Talent, there is a bag here, 84 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,480 and I can hear the noise." 85 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,760 I said, "What sound are you hearing?" He said, "Come and see." 86 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:13,680 So, I came out of my stall, 87 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,640 and it was going... "Tinkum, tinkum, tinkum, tinkum, tink..." 88 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,280 That was just the sound in that black bag. 89 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,480 It could've been gold bullion. It could've been loads of drugs. 90 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,920 It could've been loads of money. It weren't our bag. 91 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,600 I opened it up, I had my face in it 92 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,920 and then we're like, "It's a bomb." 93 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,280 Then it's like, "Is it a bomb?" I'm not a bomb expert, 94 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,160 but I knew it was a bomb when I see it. 95 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:41,840 And I'd never seen a bomb before. 96 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,800 It was like a cartoon bomb, you know? 97 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,080 - Yeah. - With a clock, ding-a-ling, and all that. 98 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,000 - So, you kinda just know. - The alarm clocks with the old bells. 99 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:50,000 With the bells on. 100 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,800 - The round face clock in a Tupperware box. - It was like that. 101 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,600 And outside... Coming out the box was wires, and they were going... 102 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,560 - Into a brown block... box. - ...into a box full of nails. 103 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,000 I said, "Call the police, call the police" 104 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,760 because we don't know what was happening or who kept the bag there, 105 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:07,320 because there was nobody there. 106 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,120 So, I walked back into my stall by the time... 107 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:11,600 to attend to my customers. 108 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,000 I remember walking off, going, "I ain't having none of this," 109 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:16,120 and then coming back. 110 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:17,400 I remember the guy, 111 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,880 like, people was going, "Oh, don't be so stupid." 112 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,480 "Put it in the bin, wheel it down there, never happened." 113 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,760 It was mad... It was like no one knew what to do. 114 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,880 No one would believe this story. I've told this story many times. 115 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,296 A crackhead took the bomb out of the bag and nicked the bag. 116 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:36,960 "Nah, you're joking me." 117 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,200 "No way did it happen." 118 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,200 "Yes, I swear down. It happened, man." 119 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,240 - Even now there's crackheads... - The crackhead come from this angle. 120 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,320 He come kind of from, like... 121 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,680 from around the stall, picked it up. 122 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,160 At this time, we're going, "Leave the fucking bag, you nutter. It's a bomb." 123 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,400 Where he's touching the bomb, everyone's going, "What are you doing?" 124 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,360 Everyone can see the bomb now, he took it out. 125 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,256 It's there, it's blatantly there, and he just gradually... 126 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,640 He just went like that... ...took the bag, and walked off up the road. 127 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,680 He wanted the bag. He just took the bag. I mean... 128 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,800 The security guard phoned the police, the police come over... 129 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,720 As the police walked over I went, "That's a bomb." 130 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,760 Everyone move back, please! Thank you. 131 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,440 I don't remember landing or getting thrown off my feet. 132 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,856 - All I remember is getting off the floor. - Exactly. 133 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:01,240 Just getting off the floor. 134 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:02,776 - I could hear you shout at me. - Yeah. 135 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,440 - He was screaming out my name. - That was after. 136 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,160 I found him on a stretcher underneath, um, a bus stop. 137 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:12,840 "I'm over here, Lee." 138 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:19,280 I had to dodge... 139 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,040 under my trolley. 140 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,760 I didn't think anybody survived, 141 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,440 because it was like the whole building collapsed on everybody. 142 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:38,360 I got a little nail in the leg. 143 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,320 I can't believe he didn't get hit. He was in front. That's mad. 144 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,000 There's people with, like, limbs missing, with nails in their head, I thought, 145 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,960 "Why do I need to waste a stretcher going to hospital with a nail?" 146 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,480 - They cut his jeans up. - It hit me in the leg. 147 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,240 So, me mum just bought me these for me birthday. 148 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,240 "Don't cut my jeans! My mum got me these for my birthday." I'll never forget that. 149 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:04,360 There were glasses all over the place. 150 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,400 Because I wasn't hurt, 151 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,400 I was grateful for that. 152 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,960 Most people around there, 153 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,000 there were lots of casualties. 154 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,320 Everybody were running all over the place 155 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,240 trying to find out if their loved ones are safe. 156 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,520 It was a horror in the day. 157 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,800 Did you think of the consequences? 158 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:42,560 No. 159 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,120 On the train, I just kept imagining it exploding. 160 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:50,800 I had to do it. 161 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:52,360 I was like a robot. 162 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,360 Did you think of the... 163 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:58,240 the people? 164 00:10:58,640 --> 00:10:59,640 No. 165 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:00,960 Not at all. 166 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,640 Thirty-nine people were injured, 167 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,000 including a child with a four-inch nail 168 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,720 embedded in their skull. 169 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,560 The combination of burns and blast injuries 170 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,800 with severe shrapnel injuries is a very difficult thing to deal with. 171 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:31,680 This bomb was designed 172 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,080 to kill as many people as possible, 173 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,400 and it is miraculous that nobody lost their life on that day. 174 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,320 The whole design of a nail bomb 175 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,240 is... is to do the maximum amount of harm 176 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,120 to the maximum number of people, to kill as many people as possible. 177 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,560 Putting fragments of metal inside a bomb 178 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,640 and... and then exploding, 179 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,080 it's going to carry this metal 180 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,040 300 miles an hour. 181 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:12,520 Nails are accompanied by anything else 182 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,440 that the blast wave picks up on the way. 183 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,640 And as it moves through different people, 184 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,480 it can carry bits of one person 185 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,240 into another. 186 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,000 So, you end up with very complex wounds 187 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,960 where bits of somebody's leg 188 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,520 can end up... end up in their chest, 189 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,120 or they can end up in the chest of the next person. 190 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:46,360 We had never seen anything quite like this before. 191 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,280 You join me in the heart of Brixton 192 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,320 where the mood is one of rising anger 193 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,040 against whoever was responsible for the nail bomb. 194 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,120 Brixton is a very tense area. 195 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,800 We just want to sort out what happened Saturday, 196 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,080 and we take it from there. 197 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,280 With me now is Mike Franklin. 198 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,920 He's from the community police consultative group. 199 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,920 Mike, I've seen today how high tensions are running here. 200 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,960 Yes, uh, people are angry. 201 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,160 This was a... a... a cowardly, callous attack on innocent people 202 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,480 going about their lawful daily business in Brixton on Saturday. 203 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:32,800 Limbs amputated, 204 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,040 shredding injuries from... from... from nails. 205 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,400 People that... deafened, blinded. 206 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,000 It wasn't a bomb, a bit of a loud noise down the road. 207 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,360 This was... This-this ruined people's lives. 208 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,640 Police were very, very careful not to jump to conclusions. 209 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,520 You know, they wanted to say, "We're keeping an open mind 210 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,720 about what the motivation of this is." 211 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,880 I thought it was a racist attack. 212 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:05,480 Instinctively. 213 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,080 You live... live down here and that happens, 214 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,120 and you normally have an idea. 215 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,360 And you had police officers saying things to you like, you know, 216 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,480 "We wanna catch the bomber as much as you do." 217 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:20,560 And you'd say to them, "No, no, you don't, because, like, where do you live?" 218 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,520 "You're not living in an area that's a target for this." 219 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,880 And the fact that the bomber didn't kill anybody the first time around, 220 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,000 there's a possibility he might come back. 221 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,160 You know, London had had bombings before. 222 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,360 The IRA campaigns, you know, weren't that distant a memory. 223 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,960 This morning, evidence taken from the wrecked building 224 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,760 is being minutely examined by the bomb squad. 225 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,120 One theory is that the attack 226 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,160 was a calculated act of defiance by the IRA 227 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,000 after the discovery in Southampton... 228 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,200 But what we hadn't had experience of 229 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,800 was a bomb of that type 230 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,680 in the middle of a pedestrianized shopping high street. 231 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,680 Annette, hi. Simon Foy here. 232 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,680 I was the young, fresh-faced, inexperienced, 233 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:15,840 quite aspiring, 234 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:17,600 probably slightly naive 235 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,880 potential commander to Brixton Division. 236 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,920 It was the most challenging place to... to work. 237 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,360 It was quite a tense atmosphere. 238 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,680 There was lots and lots of speculation 239 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,200 about what was going on and who was responsible for it. 240 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,920 A whole load of reasons went through my mind. 241 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,120 We knew there was some gang violence brewing up, 242 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,680 and there had been some shootings fairly recently. 243 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,240 Was it that? 244 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:54,680 And people were sort of saying, "Come on, then..." 245 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,960 You know, "What are you gonna do about it?" 246 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,800 Don't you think, sir, it is time 247 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,760 to come clean and say you have not got enough police officers 248 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,200 to do the job that is necessary within this community? 249 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,360 People felt under-protected and over-policed. 250 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,960 We'd all been through the Brixton riots of '81. 251 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,120 Deaths in custody, we'd been through all that stuff, 252 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,560 so a lot of us in the community 253 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,600 weren't that happy or comfortable 254 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,000 working with the police, 'cause we didn't trust them. 255 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,560 The police are harassing members of our community through stop and search. 256 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,480 The police announced that they're going to swamp our area 257 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,120 because of the bombing. 258 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,440 Police stop and search was a real issue when I was young growing up. 259 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,880 Going into Brixton on a Saturday afternoon with friends, 260 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,800 to record shops, things like that. 261 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,280 One of the things that would happen most Saturdays 262 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,200 is you'd be stopped and searched by the police. 263 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,720 The senior policeman who runs this area was telling me 264 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,920 that the advice he'd give you lot 265 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,920 is to think seriously about joining the police force. 266 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,080 He hasn't got enough... 267 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,680 Friends got taken to the police station, 268 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:01,920 come out with bruises, 269 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,920 and they'd tell you they got punched in the face by a police officer. 270 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,760 That was... That was fairly normal. 271 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,440 Those were the things that sowed the seeds of antipathy 272 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,120 between the community and the police. 273 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,120 Now to the day's other news. 274 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,000 Detectives investigating yesterday's bomb explosion 275 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:26,440 in Brixton in South London 276 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,720 say they're keeping an open mind about who planted the device. 277 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,680 The attack has not been linked to a known terrorist group. 278 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,560 Were you here last Saturday? 279 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,360 We've had lots of people that have come forward, 280 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,800 uh, but no one has been able to tell us 281 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,080 anything particular, uh, about the bomber at this moment in time. 282 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,320 No one really had a clue of anything. 283 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,680 Was it a group of people? Was it one person? 284 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,040 It created real fear. 285 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,640 The police were not really monitoring the far right at that time. 286 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,160 They say they were and people were getting picked up every now and then, 287 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,880 but there was a mindset at the top of the security services 288 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:04,760 saying that the far right weren't a threat. 289 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,840 They just wrote about these things, they weren't going to carry it out. 290 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,880 You know, just a bunch of hooligans. Why are we having to look at these people? 291 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,720 Searchlight was a private intelligence operation. 292 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,040 We infiltrated and monitored fascist groups. 293 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:27,640 Rights for whites! Rights for whites! 294 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,240 We'd been warning about it for years. 295 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,440 Terrorist movement defending the last stand, 296 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:34,920 taking on the system. 297 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,120 Kind of an underground guerrilla army. 298 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,320 And it was all about terrorism. All about killing people. 299 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,840 Sieg Hiel! Sieg Hiel! 300 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,400 Sieg Hiel! Sieg Hiel! Sieg Hiel! 301 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,800 These were dangerous times, and we wanted to stop these people. 302 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,920 The more we can find out what they're up to, the more we can... 303 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,360 stop what they're doing, 304 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,960 draw attention to what they're doing. 305 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,840 And then, we were contacted by someone 306 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,640 volunteering to get involved. 307 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:10,240 Hello, Searchlight. 308 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,560 Said he was a young lad in his early 20s, who was political, 309 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,200 very, very anti-racist. 310 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,760 Obviously, from my perspective, the best thing he could do 311 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,560 was to go inside the far right. 312 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,280 And that's what he did. 313 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,760 Is it important to still keep your identity a secret? 314 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:41,840 Yeah. 315 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,080 'Cause, like, these guys really are dangerous. 316 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,440 And they still believe that you're a Nazi? 317 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:51,200 Yeah. 318 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:54,880 Why did you do it? 319 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,640 I like being a spy. It's, um... 320 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,040 It's a buzz. 321 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,640 Can you start at the beginning, Arthur? 322 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,640 In 1999, I was undercover in the BNP. 323 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,000 For the new century, we need a new ideal, 324 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,160 a new kind of politics. 325 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,200 The British National Party was the law and order party. 326 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,080 We must stop immigration, 327 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,880 and we must help the immigrants return home. 328 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,920 We projected ourselves as being decent, 329 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,800 honorable, law-abiding citizens. 330 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,000 We were the good guys. 331 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,000 To build a movement, which in the coming century 332 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,360 will put the "great" back into Britain. 333 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,240 But behind that, 334 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,920 you'd be going to, like, a BNP meeting 335 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,200 at a church hall or, like, a back room of a pub. 336 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,040 Fuck off. 337 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,400 And people were, like, distributing hit lists, 338 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,200 overtly Nazi propaganda, 339 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:04,920 bomb manuals. 340 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,480 It was their dream that someone would go out and blow up 341 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,240 someone they've suggested to target. 342 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,240 So, it was pretty extreme. 343 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,160 My assumption was 344 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,680 that they'd keep the Nazi thing 345 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,120 out of the way for new recruits, 346 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,400 but straight away they were saying killing Jews was a good thing. 347 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,640 - First day? - First day, yeah. 348 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,400 What did you think? 349 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,120 The thing was, I was shocked. I was scared, but I was also excited. 350 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,480 And also, like, the fact that they were so overtly Nazi, 351 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,680 that's more reason to carry on, isn't it? 352 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,280 Did you feel people were checking you out? 353 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:50,800 Were they sussing you out? 354 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,320 Not really, no. 355 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,520 I guess they were thinking that 356 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,520 why wouldn't any white man want to join their organization? 357 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,840 Obviously, the anti-fascists had no idea I was on their side. 358 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,440 So, there were a few times I got whacked. 359 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,120 The worst time was actually... It was, like, a girl, 360 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,200 and, um, like, she was smashing me over the head with, I think, a hammer. 361 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,680 This was my reality. 362 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,040 What do you believe in, son? 363 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,360 We've got so many poor white people in this country. 364 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:54,800 You get all this bullshit, 365 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,200 everything has to be equal, everything this... 366 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,000 It just puts white... 367 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,200 It demeans the white man in this country now. 368 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:03,320 People like me. 369 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,480 So, you wanted to put some bombs down? 370 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,280 Yeah, yeah. As many as I could. 371 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:12,920 One a week. 372 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,040 Why did you put nails in them? 373 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,640 It means they'd smash windows, stick into people, and maim people. 374 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:29,720 And kill people. 375 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,760 The second weekend in the capital, 376 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,240 it appears that ethnic communities have once again been targeted 377 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,440 in an attack without any warning. 378 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,360 Brick Lane is sealed off tonight, 379 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,840 and as well as a sense of shock, 380 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,600 there's also a sense of relief that nobody was actually killed. 381 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,520 This strikes at the heart of the... the Bengali community. 382 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,600 We have a problem, which is tantamount to racial terrorism. 383 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,680 These things are... are outrageous, that we will not tolerate, 384 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,480 and we'll make every effort to find out who... those responsible. 385 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,360 They'll be prosecuted and brought to justice. 386 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,480 No doubt about that. 387 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,720 With me is Siddy Shivdasani, who's the editor of Eastern Eye newspaper. 388 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:47,560 We've received, uh, death threats even today at our offices. 389 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:50,320 We actually warned our readers last week. 390 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,040 if you live in a Black or Asian area to be aware. 391 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:54,960 Whilst politicians and the police 392 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,320 were dithering about whether it was a racial crime, 393 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,080 in the meantime, they were planning their next attack. 394 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,960 I was just trying to get my message out there 395 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,120 of my personal frustration with the police. 396 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,800 You know, try and do the right thing. 397 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,240 That's what I was trying to do then, to do the right thing. 398 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,680 I was editor of a British Asian paper at the time. 399 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,880 We faced a fair bit of racism. 400 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,240 Oh, you just got used to it after a while, 401 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,320 and it was just a bit mindless, really. 402 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,760 But then we got this letter. 403 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,000 It was from some group called the White Wolves. 404 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,040 I knew that an Asian area was gonna be targeted next. I felt it. 405 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,360 But the police gave us no advice to look for anything suspicious 406 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,560 or to be vigilant. Nothing. 407 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,640 We felt like they didn't give a fuck. 408 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,840 The homemade bomb that exploded in South London on Saturday 409 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,040 seemed to have been an act of lunacy. 410 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,920 Tonight, you can help, and this is how. 411 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,720 This is the quantity of nails packed around the explosives. 412 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,080 Who bought this lot? 413 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,320 It wasn't a regular customer, wasn't a regular builder. 414 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,800 Who came in for this sort of quantity of nails? 415 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,120 Alan Fry is head of the Anti-Terrorist branch. 416 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,320 Alan, has it taken you any further, what you've got so far? Do you know? 417 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:25,600 I'm... I'm sure it has, 418 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,760 although it's... it's too soon, uh, to be able to, uh, be particular 419 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,800 in regard to a... a particular line of inquiry. 420 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,480 Well, if there's any way that you think you can help, please, please do. 421 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,000 There's a £10,000 reward. That may go up. 422 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,600 There weren't many serial killers in this country, 423 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,720 let alone there'd never been a serial bomber. 424 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,800 You know, people were afraid. 425 00:27:58,760 --> 00:27:59,920 People were afraid. 426 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,720 I was the senior investigating officer. 427 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,800 The responsibility was huge. 428 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,360 I had no experience in... in terrorism investigation. 429 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,480 It brought the pressure to a different... a completely different level. 430 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,680 Police are viewing hours of tape 431 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,520 from closed-circuit TV cameras 432 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,880 in the hope that the person who planted the device 433 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,360 will have been caught on film and someone may recognize them. 434 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,320 The quality of the CCTV in 1999 435 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,400 wasn't great. 436 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,320 However, we started to find images 437 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,400 that... that might be the bomber. 438 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,160 There was someone wearing a white baseball cap 439 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,560 who was carrying over their shoulder 440 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,880 what appeared to be a sports bag. 441 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,840 The only difficulty was 442 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,800 he wasn't recognizable. 443 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,520 We went to all sorts of different agencies. 444 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,160 We even went to the Americans and... and the military. 445 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,400 I mean, we sent it out there hoping, 446 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,240 uh, that... that someone could enhance it. 447 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,240 Um, they couldn't. 448 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,680 We had to just keep looking. 449 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,760 I started working with the police. 450 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,520 I mean, I did joint press conferences. 451 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,480 So, when they produced this picture of an individual 452 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,440 who may be the bomber, 453 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,920 there was arguments with me about whether it should be published. 454 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,880 Because it's grainy. 455 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,240 Um, it's an inconclusive picture. 456 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,840 My view was, "No. If that was a member of somebody's family, they'd know it." 457 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,280 "Put it out now. Put it out today." 458 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,280 "We can't do that." 459 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,080 I said, "Well, while you're prevaricating, 460 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,480 the bomber is preparing the next bomb." 461 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,160 "It's urgent. Put it out now." 462 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,080 "Don't waste time." 463 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:57,720 "What are you gonna say to me 464 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,440 if a bomb goes off while we're here having this conversation?" 465 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,240 "And I'm telling people that you could've stopped it." 466 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,320 "Put the fucking picture out." 467 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,560 But nobody did. 468 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,801 Police were coming to us, "Had we heard anything? 469 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,280 What was our view?" 470 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,080 We were asking people the same questions. 471 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,160 Who's going to be targeted next? Are people gonna get killed? 472 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,960 By that stage, people were taking credit for it around the country. White Wolves. 473 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,640 There were letters were being circulated out of the East Midlands. 474 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,840 We went into overdrive. I remember at the time, it was like 475 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,120 24/7 trying to figure out who could it be. 476 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,600 Drawing up lists, who-who... who could have been doing this sort of thing? 477 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,400 No... no one had heard anything. 478 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,920 What were you doing to try and find the bomber? 479 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,480 I was just finding people. 480 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,080 Pretending, first of all, that I was happy, 481 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,680 and I was saying, like, "Any idea who it is?" 482 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:07,760 That sort of thing. 483 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,880 But no one had a clue. 484 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,480 No one had a clue. 485 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,800 It's quite difficult to be in a situation where you're... you're spying on people 486 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,120 and you... you try to switch that... that, 487 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,400 like, the voices off in your head, 488 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,800 but it's not easy. 489 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:31,200 I... 490 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,680 I became immune to... to the racism 491 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,240 and the fascism. 492 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,600 We'd... we'd... we'd look up to... heroes 493 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,880 within our movement, like the Waffen SS, 494 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,680 Hitler, of course. 495 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,400 For a racist, it was an inspiring environment. 496 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,560 Did you feel yourself being brainwashed? 497 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,080 I'd love to say I thought it was all bullshit. 498 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:00,920 But... 499 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:02,800 Yeah, definitely. 500 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,880 Yeah, they indoctrinated me. Yeah. 501 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,400 It was like you... 502 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,680 Yes, I doubted the Holocaust happened. 503 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,440 And I was even thinking 504 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,520 that maybe I was naive 505 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,640 if I followed the mainstream view 506 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,280 that it did happen. 507 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,400 If they can get inside my head, 508 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,360 imagine what it was doing to other people. 509 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,880 Come on! 510 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,600 When you're ready! 511 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,360 Rights for whites! Rights for whites! 512 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,440 When you were in that bubble, 513 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,480 you were with like-minded people. 514 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,480 They had the same grievances as you, 515 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,520 they had the same background as you, a lot of them. 516 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,800 You were, like, insulated from reality. 517 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,480 I was part of it back then. 518 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,160 This is our country! 519 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,400 Our own race traitors, 520 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,240 who are trying to destroy this country, 521 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,120 they are the enemy! 522 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,120 A guy called John Tyndall was our leader. 523 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,880 He was a very high-profile right-wing politician at the time. 524 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,320 Tyndall was a magnet for misfits, 525 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,280 lunatics, and losers, really. 526 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,240 That's what he wanted, 527 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,600 'cause he could... he could control 'em. 528 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,960 He would never say, "Go out and blow people up," 529 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,400 or "Attack people," but he was very clever with words. 530 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,640 His speeches were quite rousing, you know. 531 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,840 We will fight on, work on, march on, and struggle on 532 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,200 to build a country for which they died 533 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,360 and give Britain back to the British people! 534 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,280 We used to go to different meetings, 535 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,080 and they were always in pubs. 536 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,040 And so, you had all these violent young men, 537 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:10,760 intoxicated, 538 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,560 being told that they're being threatened by these hordes of immigrants, 539 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,840 and they're gonna murder you in your beds and rape your wife and eat your children. 540 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,880 After the meeting, there would always be violence. 541 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,560 Come on then, you wanker! 542 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,720 Are you all right? Can I get vitals? 543 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,800 You've got this rage inside you all the time, and... 544 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,560 anger and frustration, 545 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:45,560 and then it just... 546 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,680 You can... you can spew it all out. You know what I mean? 547 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,400 You can vent it on someone else. 548 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,960 I remember after one particular meeting, 549 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:58,720 I had a transit van. 550 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,320 It toured the area 551 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,160 and dragged Black people off the street. 552 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,120 Kidnapped them, basically, 553 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,640 and they were subjected to some pretty awful violence. 554 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,440 If the BNP didn't have that meeting in the pub... 555 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,480 and tell everyone that they were under threat and in danger, 556 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,120 they wouldn't have gone out attacking people. 557 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,600 You know, they-they incited them to do it, and then they'd wipe their mouth 558 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:30,880 and go home to his... 559 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,040 million-pound pile in Surrey or wherever it was and... 560 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,320 we'd go back to our shitholes in Stockwell, you know what I mean? 561 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,320 Job done, then. 562 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,040 That's... that's how it happens. 563 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,840 That's how they manipulate people and use people, and... 564 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,960 Yeah, I've done some pretty... pretty shit things, really. 565 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,200 Really bad things. 566 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,760 When did this come into your head that you wanted to do this? 567 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,280 Oh, don't know. A few years ago. 568 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,120 'Cause you're only 22 now, right? 569 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,400 Yeah, so I was about 20. 570 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,640 You've heard in the newspaper, no doubt, 571 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:23,080 and it's been printed, about this White... White Wolves organization. 572 00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:27,080 I don't know who they are. I-I don't know who they are. 573 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,560 I-I don't care who they are. 574 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,280 So, they would have no idea who you are? 575 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,240 No. No idea at all. 576 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,720 So their claims are purely fictional? 577 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:36,800 Made up. 578 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,760 Just trying to, you know, take my glory. 579 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,120 My aim was political. To cause a racial war in this country. 580 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:52,120 What does that mean? 581 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,360 There'll be the uprising and all that. 582 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,120 You know, the racial violence in the street, whatever. 583 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,160 What was your intention at that point? 584 00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:04,040 I was thinking of a target I was gonna blow up. 585 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,560 Had you decided at this time where you were going to put the bomb? 586 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:08,880 Yeah. 587 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:09,960 Soho. 588 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,000 Two bomb attacks in London 589 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,840 have understandably led to fears in the capital that there is more to come. 590 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,400 Racists, we are told, were probably behind the bombs, 591 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,840 and they probably intend to strike again. 592 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,960 ♪ Alice from above ♪ 593 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:39,120 ♪ Has a face that makes you Want to fall in love ♪ 594 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,840 ♪ Fall in love ♪ 595 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,720 ♪ All I wanted is a... ♪ 596 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,360 Nobody knew which community was gonna be targeted next. 597 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,800 Would it be the Chinese community? 598 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,840 Would it be the Jewish community? 599 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,840 There was a lot of discussion. 600 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,600 But the early conversations were all about race, all about ethnicity. 601 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,520 Nobody was thinking about, uh, the fact 602 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,640 that this could go wider to the gay community. 603 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,880 The visible part of the gay community was in Soho, 604 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,400 and probably Old Compton Street. 605 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,440 You could kind of barhop 606 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,560 from one bar or one gay venue to another. 607 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,800 They were thriving, they were energetic, 608 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,480 they were full of life. 609 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,480 It felt very free. 610 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,560 It felt as if you could be in those spaces and be yourself. 611 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,520 When the second bomb went off, things became very clear very quickly. 612 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,360 This was somebody who hated difference. 613 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,240 They hate people who are different, 614 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,400 who... who don't fit their perception of normal society. 615 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,080 We began having conversations with the police at quite a senior level. 616 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,640 We were told that it was a... a racial issue. 617 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,840 And we raised our concerns, and it was met with some skepticism 618 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,120 and some disbelief at Scotland Yard. 619 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,600 So it was really pretty much down to us 620 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,800 to ring round the managers of the key venues, 621 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,680 the pubs, the clubs, the coffee bars, the restaurants, to say... 622 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,320 "This could come to us. Please be aware. Be vigilant." 623 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,440 We will defeat the people who are responsible for these bombs. 624 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:43,560 We will catch them. 625 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,320 We don't have specific corroboration for any particular group, 626 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,200 uh, who are responsible for these outrages, 627 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,360 but clearly, it is... it is most likely to be, um, 628 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,320 far-right extremists who are targeting minority groups. 629 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,480 Everyone was kind of blind to it, 'cause no one knew where it was coming. 630 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,680 But everyone was expecting for it to happen. 631 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,520 I'd meet Arthurin places where we thought 632 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,520 other people who knew him or knew me wouldn't be. 633 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,640 Tourist hotels in London, 634 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:19,440 meet outside London. 635 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,640 He understood what his mission was. 636 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:24,640 And he understood that he had to stop them. 637 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,520 I'd meet my contact 638 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,520 and go through all these names of people I knew already... 639 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,560 and mentioned this guy 640 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,280 who I'd referred to as "Dave from Barking" 641 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,080 because he... he mentioned that was where... where he was living. 642 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,800 We were a similar sort of age, 643 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:47,800 bonded a little bit, 644 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,560 talked about music 645 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,920 and the fact he didn't like people with brown faces very much. 646 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,680 I last saw him at the annual rally 647 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,720 when, um, he was acting like a-a steward. 648 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,640 He had, like, a steward's armband. He stood next to John Tyndall. 649 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,840 I think Tyndall got quite badly beaten up by anti-fascists. 650 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,960 After that, Dave just, like, disappeared. 651 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,240 And I didn't think anything of him. 652 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,880 After Saturday at Brick Lane, 653 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,440 I got a taxi to Soho to do a bit of recon. 654 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,160 Roughly what time would this have been? 655 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:46,680 Must've been about 7:00. 656 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,800 Right. So, what was your intention at that point? 657 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,080 I was thinking what pub I was gonna blow up. 658 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,800 I went down to Old Compton Street. 659 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,000 I wanted to make sure it was the right pub 'cause I was after a queer one. 660 00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:04,720 A gay one or whatever you wanna call it. 661 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,000 Have you got a problem with gays, then? 662 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,000 - Yeah, I have. - Why? 663 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,400 I'm just very homophobic. 664 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,480 That's pretty... You know, I just hate 'em. 665 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:19,400 Why? 666 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,480 I don't know. You just do. 667 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,160 There must be a reason. 668 00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:25,200 I got a thing about homosexuals. 669 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,280 I just don't like talking about it, you know what I mean? 670 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,560 I chose the gays 'cause I hate them. 671 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,640 You know? I mean, that was personal. 672 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,480 The tape doesn't pick this up, but when we speak to you about the gays, 673 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,440 you... you have to close your eyes, and you seem quite intense there, David. 674 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,240 Yeah. I just don't like them. 675 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,040 I just don't like them, yeah? 676 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,080 I'm completely straight. Don't worry about that. 677 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,240 No, no, no. It's not a problem, but it upsets you. 678 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,680 You know? I don't know why it upsets you. 679 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,320 It upset you enough to plant a bomb. 680 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,200 But I don't know why. 681 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,600 After the two Saturday afternoon bombings in London, 682 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,040 police forces around the country are warning people 683 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,520 who could be potential targets to be vigilant this weekend. 684 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,280 Detectives fear the Brick Lane and Brixton bombs 685 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,320 could be the start of a nationwide racist terror campaign. 686 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,200 Police say they don't want to spread panic 687 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,840 but want everyone to be aware of the possible threat 688 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,320 of another bomb this bank holiday weekend. 689 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,200 There were two things that drew attention to the suspect. 690 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,360 Instead of looking at thousands of people, 691 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,720 your job is to look at all those thousands of people who might be carrying a bag. 692 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:34,840 And then once that bag was found, then there was the hat he was wearing. 693 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,320 But there was hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours. 694 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,080 At first, the images were so bad you couldn't tell who it was. 695 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,640 But then we started to find other images that were clearer. 696 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,680 The guys were straight down at my office. "Boss, you've gotta see this." 697 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,960 I distinctly remember that moment. 698 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,560 Here's the image. This is the bomber. 699 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,840 Before rush hour, it was on posters at stations 700 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,160 and other key locations across the capital. 701 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:26,440 The images have been posted on the internet 702 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,400 and are being sent to every police force in the country. 703 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,440 Even though the police suspect he may be behind the bombing, 704 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,120 if he's watching this broadcast 705 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,120 and he honestly thinks he's innocent, then he should come forward. 706 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,160 I heard on the radio that you had pictures of me. 707 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,080 And at first, I thought, "That's it. I'm caught." 708 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:49,960 So, I've immediately gone straight home, and I've realized I ain't been caught yet. 709 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,920 I built my device, set the time, I packed it all up. 710 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,760 Waited till about half past four, caught a taxi up to Soho. 711 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,960 What time did you set the timer up for the Soho bomb? 712 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,120 Six thirty. 713 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,000 It was my day off. 714 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,360 I think I'd been to a gallery, and I was on my way home. 715 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,240 And it was a Friday, 716 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,640 beginning of a... a holiday weekend. The weather was glorious. 717 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,840 I think maybe it was late afternoon. 718 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,760 There were people finishing work, there was an... an air of gaiety 719 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,840 and, you know, it was like a holiday weekend. 720 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,160 There was an atmosphere. 721 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,040 And I'd been into the Admiral Duncan once before, I think. 722 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,120 Um, didn't really remember it all that well, 723 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,320 and I was passing by, and I thought, 724 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:06,600 "Fancy a half a beer." 725 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,680 It was a small pub. Narrow. 726 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,640 And it-it was sort of beginning to be buzzing. 727 00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:17,920 You know? And people were arriving all the time. 728 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:24,880 It was a Friday afternoon. 729 00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:32,400 And I had heard the police had identified footage from Brixton. 730 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,880 I saw copies of the Evening Standard. 731 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,040 Pretty much straight away, I thought that it might be Dave from Barking. 732 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,120 And then my contact at Searchlight phoned, 733 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,560 and I just said, 734 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,800 "It could be David Copeland." 735 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:54,880 We started going through our own records, 736 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,600 all the stuff that Arthur had told us over the years, 737 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,600 and, you know, there we found Copeland's name 738 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,560 in a number of different meetings, a number of different events. 739 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,640 So a colleague of mine contacted the police. 740 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,000 Looked at my watch. I still had, what? 741 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,320 An hour to go before the ignition? 742 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,560 I sort of waited by the telephone box, 743 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,000 making it look lik e I was waiting for the phone. 744 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,840 I went in there about I'd say ten... 745 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,200 ten to six. 746 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:34,120 Ordered a drink. 747 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,200 When I was in there, I seen the people I was gonna maim and kill. 748 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:41,600 I didn't feel joy about it. 749 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:42,960 I didn't feel sad. 750 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:45,920 I just didn't feel anything. 751 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,560 And how long were you here for at the end of the bar, you said? 752 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,200 Fifteen minutes. Twenty minutes. 753 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,560 Is that right? You had a glas s of Coke or something? 754 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,240 A glass of Coke. 755 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,640 I left it there and I asked one of the men in there if there was a bank nearby. 756 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,360 And this is just as you left, was it now? 757 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:10,800 - Yeah. - Yeah. 758 00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:15,160 How many people were actuall y in the public house 759 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,960 when you actually put the bag down? Do you remember? 760 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,920 Between 15 to 20 people. 761 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,480 I struggled to actually get out of the place. 762 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,840 I had to go around people and ask them to move. 763 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,320 I knew that people would be killed, but I had to do it. 764 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:46,600 The noise level was getting louder. 765 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,080 Ordered the beer. 766 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,120 I don't know whether I even sipped it. 767 00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:59,000 And then... 768 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:12,680 I couldn't hear anything. 769 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,840 Something's really strange. 770 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:17,240 I felt really strange. 771 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,640 Everything switched off. 772 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,000 I don't feel right. 773 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:29,400 And I think that I was still leaning on... on the bar. 774 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,920 And I looked across to where the optics and... and... and things... 775 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,240 and the bottles should have been, and there was nothing. 776 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,760 Just darkness, wisps of smoke, 777 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:44,120 and nobody. 778 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,200 I-I couldn't see anybody, couldn't hear anything. 779 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,200 And I can remember turning 780 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,880 to... to look to see what was going on, 781 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,640 and then the next memory is of being... 782 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,280 looking up at a... a young woman, 783 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,640 and I could see her mouth opening and closing, screaming, I think. 784 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,560 I learnt later, if you're in a bomb, your eardrums get blown. 785 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,040 I think that I was dragged outside and there was a guy 786 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,160 who was with me and... who said that I was talking to him. 787 00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:52,320 I could tell him where I came from. 788 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,080 I don't remember any of that. None. None of it. 789 00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:08,160 I was taken to hospital. 790 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,400 They didn't know whether I was gonna live. 791 00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:20,800 They had me on some pretty strong drugs. 792 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,800 And I remember, sort of, dreaming and things like that 793 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,480 while they were altering, um, the level of... of pain medication. 794 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,840 I was having this dream about being in a nightclub, and everybody was rats. 795 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,720 And the rats were dressed as human beings. 796 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,440 There were rats in the wall. I could hear them. 797 00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:46,840 There was a... a biplane. 798 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,640 You know, one of those planes that goes onto the water? 799 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,800 That arrived at the... at the nightclub. 800 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:55,600 Rats, rats, and more rats. 801 00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,280 I learned later that, um, Copeland had let his rats... 802 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:20,480 He had pet rats. 803 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:26,080 And he let them, um, run across the stuff that he was packing the nail bombs with. 804 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,680 And, um, so, from what I can tell, 805 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:32,960 the guys that were in the same hospital as me, 806 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:34,800 um, we all got these weird infections, 807 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,080 and they couldn't figure out what was wrong with us. 808 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,760 And it was all because he let these rats... 809 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,160 you know, like, urinate and defecate 810 00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:45,760 all over whatever it was that he was jamming in there. 811 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,880 As these patients came in one at a time, 812 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:10,080 we began to realize just how serious this was. 813 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,560 They had quite horrific injuries. 814 00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,760 This was like a war scene. 815 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,880 Patients came in with extensive burns, 816 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,280 unconscious, 817 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:26,400 one after another. 818 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:38,520 And perhaps the most difficult thing I've had to do in my career 819 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:43,160 was dealing with a patient who had come in unconscious, 820 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,680 and he remained unconscious for a few days. 821 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,880 As he came round gradually, 822 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,360 we realized that we had to speak to him 823 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,040 to give him the worst possible news. 824 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,880 Two friends had both died 825 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:10,560 and tragically his wife and unborn child 826 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,040 had also been killed. 827 00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,440 It's been revealed that a pregnant woman and the best man at her wedding 828 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,840 were among the three people killed in the explosion. 829 00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:44,200 Andrea Dykes was killed almost instantly. 830 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,760 Her husband, Julian, is in a critical condition in hospital. 831 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:06,920 I was at home when I heard. 832 00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,080 It was just complete shock. 833 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:14,960 And helplessness. 834 00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:21,160 You know, we were... 835 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,040 We were, uh, close, 836 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,120 um, in terms of... 837 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,280 You know, we felt we were getting very close to catching the perpetrator. 838 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,600 We'd tracked down a... an address that he was possibly living at. 839 00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,360 Honestly, I wanted to get caught. 840 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:56,440 Why? 841 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,440 I'd be famous in some sort of way. 842 00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:03,320 And what does fame mean to you? 843 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:05,960 It's existence. 844 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,680 What's that mean? I-I don't understand. 845 00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,920 If no one remembers who you were, you never existed. 846 00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:15,960 All right. 847 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,920 It would be remiss of us not to ask... 848 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:24,080 why you did it? 849 00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,920 To spread fear, resentment, and hatred. 850 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:35,560 I am a Nazi. 851 00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:37,280 I admit that. 852 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:39,480 Yeah. 853 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:44,640 David, that is the buzzer 854 00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:46,400 indicating that the tape is about to finish, 855 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,560 so we will finish at this moment in time. 856 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:56,320 Yes, ladies and gentlemen, 857 00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,320 in the early hours of Saturday the 1st of May, 858 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,320 unarmed officers from the Organized Crime squad Flying Squad 859 00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,400 arrested a 22-year-old man in Cove, Hampshire. 860 00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,400 The man is not a member 861 00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,080 of any of the groups which have made claims of responsibility 862 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:23,240 for the bombings. 863 00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:26,720 It is understood that he was working alone 864 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:28,480 for his own motives. 865 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,360 The start of David Copeland's murder trial 866 00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,080 was attended by more than three dozen of his victims 867 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,280 and the relatives of those he killed. 868 00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,760 The 24-year-old defendant denie s three murder charges 869 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,800 due to diminished responsibility. 870 00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,400 Copeland wouldn't be the first person 871 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,200 who thought he could get away with murder by claiming he's mad. 872 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,240 I've got a massive problem with people 873 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:25,800 who harm women or children. 874 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:28,640 And so when Copeland happened... 875 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:30,920 For... He's murdered that woman, 876 00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:33,800 and he's murdered an unborn child. 877 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,240 You know, I was never gonna let him get away with it. 878 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:42,640 His only option really 879 00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,520 was to plead diminished responsibility, 880 00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,960 so I needed him to confess that he was perfectly sane. 881 00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,800 But these days, you've got these pedophile hunters on the internet, 882 00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,840 and they pretend to be a male or a female, 883 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,360 and a pedophile will get in touch with them, 884 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,480 they'll arrange to meet, then they give the evidence to the police. 885 01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,000 Well, if you like, before the internet, 886 01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,880 um, I was doing a different version of that. 887 01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,520 Dear David, you don't know me, 888 01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,120 but I've been hearing about you in the news. 889 01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:23,200 How can they call people monsters and evil without even knowing them? 890 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,080 I believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty. 891 01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,960 Anyway, I hope you don't mind me writing to you. 892 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:32,480 Patsy. 893 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,360 Dear Patsy, thank you for your letter. 894 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,360 I'm 5 foot 8, 23 with brown hair. 895 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,160 My mum says I'm handsome, but I don't know. 896 01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,040 I can't picture what you look like. 897 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:48,920 Please send me a picture. 898 01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,640 With Copeland, he's gonna wanna be in control, 899 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,800 so I invented this girl called Patsy Scanlon. 900 01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:02,280 Patsy was like these girls you see 901 01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,120 in the 1940s propaganda films. 902 01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,880 You know, she's lithe, blonde, beautiful. 903 01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,480 Someone who'll do what they're told without question. 904 01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:15,520 Someone who's vulnerable. 905 01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,040 Totally airhead, do you know what I mean? 906 01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,160 I knew he'd go for that one million percent. 907 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:26,280 I just knew it. 908 01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,760 For the survivors, 909 01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,160 it was a day of harrowing evidence. 910 01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,280 As the horrific injuries caused by the explosions were described, 911 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,920 several people were visibly distressed. 912 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,560 The trial was about whether he was mad or bad, 913 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,760 and he had a barrage of lawyers. 914 01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,360 He had, you know, more on... on his side 915 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:52,960 than what were on the other side, than the... than the Crown. 916 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,600 David Copeland pleaded not guilty to murder, 917 01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:59,880 but said instead he was guilty of manslaughter 918 01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:01,800 because of diminished responsibility. 919 01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,760 It's now for the jury to decide his state of mind. 920 01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,040 Essentially, what I needed was a smoking gun. 921 01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,040 I needed him to say, you know, something 922 01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:13,640 that showed he was playing a game with the doctors, 923 01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,200 but I didn't have a lot of time to get him. 924 01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:17,800 Dear David, 925 01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,600 I hope you're not too worried about your trial. 926 01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,040 It must be a stressful time for you. 927 01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:24,920 Dear Patsy, 928 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,920 you are a very attractive young lady. 929 01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:31,640 Oh, you know. 930 01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,440 My plan was to build Copeland up. 931 01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:37,640 By doing that, get him to open up. 932 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,640 I hope you're feeling confident and thinking positive thoughts. 933 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:42,240 It feels strange being famous. 934 01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:43,760 Dear David, 935 01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,280 I saw your picture in the papers the other day. 936 01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,640 Your mum is right. You really are handsome. 937 01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:49,960 Dear Patsy, 938 01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:51,600 I can't get you out of my mind. 939 01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,600 All I do is dream about you and when we can finally meet. 940 01:02:55,440 --> 01:03:00,960 And he signed that "Love, Dave," which was an escalation of things, really. 941 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,120 The whole mood of Copeland's letters changed. 942 01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:06,560 Dear Patsy... 943 01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:09,320 I had a... a flurry of letters at that point. 944 01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,120 Your letters are the only things that are keeping me going here. 945 01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,640 I lie on my bed at night and think of you. 946 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,120 Promise me, Patsy, you'll never forget about me. 947 01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,880 - Hope I'll hear from you soon. - Then, finally, I had him. 948 01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,280 Dear Patsy, this place is a joke. 949 01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:25,560 So are the doctors. 950 01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:26,920 They think they're clever, 951 01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:28,960 but they're as stupid as the fools in here. 952 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,240 Things are not looking too bad for my trial. 953 01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:34,680 I can't believe that I fooled all the doctors. 954 01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:38,840 "I can't believe that I have fooled all the doctors." 955 01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:47,240 The jury looked at the correspondence in its entirety. 956 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,880 Saw it as I saw it. Saw it as the psychiatrist saw it. 957 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,680 There's absolutely nothing wrong with him. 958 01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,560 Copeland was showed photographs of these horrific injuries 959 01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,840 and all the misery and pain he'd caused, 960 01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,400 and not once did he show a sign of emotion. 961 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,840 But then when the prosecutor read out 962 01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,920 that, um, the girl he wanted to marry 963 01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,680 was actually a... an hairy-arsed bouncer from Essex called Bernie, 964 01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,200 you know, he put his head in his hands and slumped in the dock. 965 01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,120 You know, his... his world ended. 966 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,840 David Copeland, the young fanatic 967 01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:35,320 who worshiped Adolf Hitler and planted nail bombs across London, 968 01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,800 is in Broadmoor tonight starting six life sentences. 969 01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:43,800 He was convicted of murdering three people and injuring nearly 150 others 970 01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,880 in a bombing campaign that targeted Blacks and homosexuals. 971 01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:48,960 The jury rejected his plea 972 01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,400 that he wasn't responsible for his actions. 973 01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,720 For two of the survivors, a poignant moment outside the Old Bailey. 974 01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:13,080 David Copeland has not achieved his aims of fame and power. 975 01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:18,200 Today's verdict prove he... proves he is a dangerous, pathetic nobody 976 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:19,800 who is now where he belongs. 977 01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:26,920 - Thanks, fellas. - Thanks. 978 01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:38,320 Everybody was saying, "Come on, we'll go out for a drink" and "Yeah." 979 01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:43,600 And I can remember thinking... "Nothing to celebrate here. Really." 980 01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:45,400 Oh, beautiful. 981 01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:48,680 To new beginnings. 982 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,000 I've always had this real overwhelming sense of, um, 983 01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:56,320 what a bloody waste. 984 01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,760 What a waste of human life. 985 01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:01,800 His included. 986 01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,320 'Cause he'll never get out, he'll never be any use to anybody. 987 01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,200 And what he's done to all these people, you know? 988 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,080 Hundreds and hundreds of people. 989 01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:21,760 I wish... 990 01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:24,680 I wish we'd been able to stop it. 991 01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,800 Just, like, stop those people from being killed and injured. 992 01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,680 So, there's some sort of guilt that exists, is there? 993 01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:38,360 Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. 994 01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:40,800 Definitely. 995 01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:43,240 I think about that a lot. 996 01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,560 I thought I'd got over it. And then it came back. 997 01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:55,560 I, you know, well... 998 01:06:56,320 --> 01:07:00,480 Joining the BNP, I wanted, like, the excitement of, like, being a spy and... 999 01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:05,280 all that, and, like, taking on, like, the bad people. 1000 01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,480 But when something on that scale happened, 1001 01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:13,360 I wish... I wish we'd been able to stop what happened sooner. 1002 01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:21,560 Yep. 1003 01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:28,000 Arthur was someone who was motivated by doing something good. 1004 01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:33,560 At the time, there was a reward. There was a reward put out by the police. 1005 01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:36,080 Seventy-thousand pounds for his identification. 1006 01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:38,360 Arthur was never interested in a penny. 1007 01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,400 And even now. I mean... There were some people in his family, 1008 01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:46,960 only on the 20th anniversary of the London nail bombings 1009 01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,920 that some of his family found out what... what he had done. 1010 01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,080 That he wasn't a Nazi after all. 1011 01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:01,640 Arthur had been inside for 10 years, 1012 01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:05,880 you know, week in, week out, going to British National Party meetings, 1013 01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:08,120 being chased down the street by anti-fascists, 1014 01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,440 being attacked by anti-fascists, 1015 01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:12,920 going to concerts with Nazis, 1016 01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,880 and he'd done all of this and... 1017 01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:19,560 Of course, you know, he did far more than just identify Copeland. 1018 01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,200 He played a major role 1019 01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:26,760 in the British National Party not building on their successes in East London. 1020 01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:32,200 Tyndall failed to take hold across the country because of Arthur. 1021 01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:38,040 The police say that the BNP presence does introduce an element of racial tension... 1022 01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,560 Oh, "The police say, the police say, the police say." 1023 01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:44,600 - So you don't believe them. - No, we don't accept it at all. 1024 01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:48,040 And you don't accept the courts and the convictions that your members have. 1025 01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:49,280 I've told you before, 1026 01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:51,600 our members have no greater proportion 1027 01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:54,320 of convictions than any other party members. 1028 01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:56,200 Okay. Thanks very much. 1029 01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:59,960 Right. Get your stuff out of here with the minimum delay. 1030 01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:04,200 You people are true to form. 1031 01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:09,680 You're exactly the way that, uh, we've learned to expect, and... 1032 01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:26,040 They're trying to drive us apart, 1033 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,440 and the message we're giving them here today, 1034 01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,480 that it's the reverse effect. 1035 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:32,400 We're coming together! 1036 01:09:32,480 --> 01:09:35,120 In a way you've never seen us before! 1037 01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,120 Let's march to fulfill this day! 1038 01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,680 I think that someone like Copeland, 1039 01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:56,040 someone trying to do what Copeland did, will never succeed. 1040 01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:00,200 What gives me hope 1041 01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:04,080 is that there are still more good people than bad people. 1042 01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,160 And... and the haters can never win. 1043 01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:11,720 In the long... in the long term, the haters can ne... can never win. 1044 01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:16,200 And it must be... it must be horrible to be consumed with hate. 1045 01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:17,280 You know? 1046 01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:22,520 Think about all the things you can't enjoy 'cause, you know, you're full of hate. 1047 01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,360 No. Today's Friday. I'm gonna go home and have a beer.